Questions for Jerry Montgomery

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TazKristi
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Questions for Jerry Montgomery

#1 Post by TazKristi » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:46 am

Hi, everyone:
We thought to start a thread dedicated to questions that you might have for Jerry Montgomery. Jerry has a wealth of information to share but please know that he can't answer questions regarding pricing or delivery for Sage Marine. Please feel free to post your questions for Jerry in this thread.

I'd like to thank Jerry for being willing to share his knowledge!

Kristi

noel
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Re: Questions for Jerry Montgomery

#2 Post by noel » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:57 am

Couple days ago setting up Vela a seasonal local live aboard sailor came by to admire your creation. He and his wife live up here during the summer and sail down to the Carib for the cold months. Decades of sailing experience. Asked me what I least like about the Sage 15? Not a dislike, but a concern if any of the components to retract the daggerboard failed. He then told me how he dealt with a failed cable on a drop keel while in the water miles from a marina. Last non-fixed keel boat he ever purchased. He asked if the Sage was available as a fixed keel version. Conversation then drifted to twin keels (true twin fins, not bilge keel boats).

The questions:
Have you ever considered a twin keel for any of your designs? Feelings about twin keels in general and specifically on smaller pocket cruisers?

Vela should have been named Magnet. +90 minutes later I’m launching Vela. Ditto later that evening breaking down Vela to tow home. Different live aboard sailor stopped by to admire the boat.

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Jerry
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Re: Questions for Jerry Montgomery

#3 Post by Jerry » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:47 am

Hi Noel- I'm assuming that by twin keels, not bilge keels, that you mean fore-and-aft keels.

No, I've never really thought about using the principle. If the keels were fixed, the only advantage would be lowering the draft and a bit more directional stability, but the advantage of more directional stability is arguable. A lot of good sailing boats have high aspect fin keels and do very well. I've sailed Santa Cruz 27's, Olsen and Sonoma 30's, etc, and have never thought of them as squirrely. Relating this to the Sage 15, in order to have similar windward ability (outstanding in the Sage) the keels would have to have considerably more draft, which would eliminate the ability to keep the boat in the garage. I don't claim to know what I'm talking about when it comes to marketing, but I'm quite sure that this feature is important to many, including me.

If the keels were retractable, they would have the advantage of adjusting the helm, but this marginable advantage would be more than offset by the fact that there would need to be a trunk well forward in the boat. The one in the cockpit would be annoying also. The aft board, when up, would definately intrude into the cockpit.

In terms of reliability, including strength, in the present setup, there's not much that could go wrong (famous words- I know). The pennant line is about a 1000% overkill in terms of strength, and it's set up so there is no point of wear or abrasion, and it's simple to inspect. In the event of the boat hitting something at speed, the drop keel is at least as strong as a fixed keel; the trunk is REALLY glued in. The board would break before the trunk, which is what is needed.

Good question, but I'm not buying into the twin keels! Just curious- is your 15 a cat or a sloop?

Jerry

noel
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Re: Questions for Jerry Montgomery

#4 Post by noel » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:25 am

Bilge keel. The style that seems to be relatively popular in Britain along the coastal regions with huge tide changes. Old memory. Sort of remember reading about the Hunter(the British boat builder) Duette, a twin fin version of the Sonata being more or less equal in performance. Fins were canted and toe-in. I’m guessing that is the difference between twin fin vs. bilge keel. Or maybe just a marketing concept.

Sloop. Hull #010. Was on the fence between the cat and sloop rig. Decided on the sloop. Bit more flexibility in sail plan. Purchased a storm jib for the days where single reef is a must and double reefing might be required. Wasn’t too sure about heaving to the SageCat. Especially if I waited too long to reef. Like last week. Watched Cody’s video on the Columbia River. 15-20mph winds noted. Seas looked relatively flat. Up here +15 knot E to NE in the Bay is solid white capped seas, 2-4 feet high frequency waves. Bit more rock and roll.

Not sure if possible, but having the luff reef lines run to the cockpit on the sloop like the cat would be nice.

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Jerry
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Re: Questions for Jerry Montgomery

#5 Post by Jerry » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:05 am

I'm totally with you on the storm jib- wouldn't be w/o one.

Mainsail luff reefing line is a convenience on a sloop but it's pretty easy to reach the mast, and jumping up to the mast and a quick pull isn't a big deal, but it's a necessary on a cat because the mast is so far forward that you don't want to go up there when it's blowing. That's why Sage puts one on the cat but not the sloop.

I'm not trying to discourage you from doing it, and the only negative thing about the reefing line on the sloop is that it's another thing to do when setting the boat up/down. It IS a convenience when it's time to use it.

Have fun.

kingco
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Re: Questions for Jerry Montgomery

#6 Post by kingco » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:55 pm

Hi Jerry, I am owner of a sagecat hull #6 and couldn't be happier with her so far! I have done two summer cruises for about two weeks each in the San Juan Islands with my wife, her friend and our small dog. However I primarily sail in the Columbia river gorge where the wind gets big fairly regularly and is always opposing a current.So far the two reefs have served me well in winds up to about the mid 20's but in some of the bigger gusts on those days the boat was feeling over-pressed and I have dreams of a bit more audacious cruises in the near future. I was wondering if there would be any problem you could foresee with having a 3rd reef sewn into the sail. In stock form there is already an unused line lead on the port side of the mast base and cabin top so in theory all that would be needed would be a deck cleat or cam for the luff reef line at the cockpit and an additional cheek block and clam cleat for the leech reef line.

In a somewhat separate question, I asked Dave when he was at Sage about running backstays for the the Sagecat and he linked a reply from you in which you said that could work so long as they attached somewhere aft of the center of the mast (I think this is what I read, if my memory serves me correctly). I did some measuring and searching and found a Wichard deep shackle that has a pin the exact same diameter as the pin for the masthead halyard sheave. I'll try to attach a picture. Does this seem like a solution for an attachment point for running backstays?
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Jerry
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Re: Questions for Jerry Montgomery

#7 Post by Jerry » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:57 pm

I see no problems with three reefs other than having a lot of lines running around. You might want to think of having another main made; heavier fabric and if you use a conventional head rather than a fathead, it would reduce the area quite a bit. You might even want to have the sail made with a hollow leach and eliminate the need for battens. Heavier fabric would reduce the wear in heavy air and save a lot of wear and tear on your existing sail from heavy winds. If you do a lot of heavy air stuff you'll take the edge off your sail pretty fast. It's money tied up, but it would save so much wear and tear on your normal sail it's worth it in my mind.

You'll want to run the running backstays to the hounds; not the masthead. You can probably hook them up to the existing fitting by using D shackles. When we made the runners for Mike Mann's trip to HI with an M-15, we used halyard wire, probably 1/8", but left them just short enough to tie some braided Dacron which he simply tied off on the mooring cleats at the transom. Worked fine. I question that you need runners but they do take a lot of compression off the mast.

kingco
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Re: Questions for Jerry Montgomery

#8 Post by kingco » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:50 pm

Thanks for the advice Jerry! I do like the idea of a heavy weather sail and the idea of a triangular and battenless one seem to make a lot of sense. I would imagine it might make it a bit less expensive being battenless as well. Time to start saving my pennies!

noel
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Re: Questions for Jerry Montgomery

#9 Post by noel » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:51 am

Mast step question. Pretty sure the S15’s mast is a Dwyer DM-5? Noticed at the Dwyer website at least two options for mast stepping. The Hinged Step (DH219H) used on the Sage and a Tabernacle (DH2175L). Wondering what the plus and minuses are for one vs. the other?

Was going to order a couple spare hinge pins (DH2151P). Price is reasonable at $8.69, until you add the shipping cost($21.25). Maybe time for a group bulk buy? So far, haven’t dropped and lost the pin. Some have accused me of “lost your mind” for taking a small boat out into L. Superior. Reply: google Michael Mann, Little Breeze. Skill and experience is a magnitude less but the boat is capable of dealing with Superior in the proper hands.

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sal
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Re: Questions for Jerry Montgomery

#10 Post by sal » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:54 pm

Hi Noel,

Jerry designs are pretty well thought out and we build them right. I'm sure the little boat has it's limitations. I'd also be curious as to Jerry's thoughts?

sal

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